[gridengine users] Which Grid Engine?

Rayson Ho rayrayson at gmail.com
Fri Sep 9 17:53:53 UTC 2011


On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:25 PM, LaoTsao <laotsao at gmail.com> wrote:
> sorry it is me that mixup the copyright and copyright reassignment

Don't worry about it LaoTsao... each time this topic comes up it
always ends up with a bad ending. It was worse when Fritz suggested
unifying the forks and merge everyone into Univa's fork on the
steering community list a few months ago :-D

>From time to time the discussion of merging everyone into one project
comes up, but what people outside of the software development industry
wouldn't know is that coordinating distributed teams is hard, and 10
times harder when each party is under a different employer. Just look
at the LKML, if the flame war here is bad, then the linux kernel list
is unbearable.

I guess we should just say that "The open-source Grid Engine forks
agree to disagree" when someone brings this topic up again.


> what i mean is that if someone else make $ of your code then you should get a share of $

Traditionally open core projects don't get a lot of (non-employee)
supporters for exactly the reason you mentioned -- mine is yours, but
your private bits are proprietary for making $, and the open source
supporters don't get a share.

The more fundamental problem in Grid Engine is that we always disagree
on so many thing - Ron wanted to wait for Oracle to officially sunset
the originally project before adding new changes to the Open Grid
Scheduler (we were the one who did not want to have so many forks),
but then Dave wanted to add changes first, so he started his own. And
then Univa did not want to join neither of the two projects and
started its own but wanted others to join them instead. I guess if
initially there was only one fork and everyone tried hard to work
together, then it might have worked.

If a team with members always disagree with one another, I don't think
the team can work on anything productive -- may as well break it up
into different teams!

But even when Sun Grid Engine was open source it didn't get a lot of
outside contributions, so it is not going to miss anything if we
continue to have 3 forks or even more forks.

And about copyright reassignment: If we release our code under SISSL,
then whoever wants to use our code needs to be bounded by the SISSL -
no one gets special treatment. Same goes for the GPL -- I have never
heard of Redhat (or Oracle Linux) or SUSE asking Linus to reasign the
copyright.

Copyright reassignment is nice to have if most of the code is owned by
the original company that developed the software (e.g. MySQL). Some
projects don't have this process because they know it is turning away
contributors. But for open-source/open-core Grid Engines, over 90% of
each fork's codebase was developed by Sun (the really original code
was bought by Sun in 2000, so Sun owns the IP), so reassignment is not
really needed IMO.

Finally, when there was no competition in the browser market IE sucked
the most. Competition leads to innovations and also drives prices
down. So responding to Marks comment on "pulling in a common direction
to benefit the community as a whole": what benefits the community the
most is always avoid having only a single supplier of Grid Engine.

Rayson



>
> Sent from my iPad
> Hung-Sheng Tsao ( LaoTsao) Ph.D
>
> On Sep 9, 2011, at 12:25, LaoTsao <laotsao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> sorry it is me that mixup the copyright and copyright reassignment
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> Hung-Sheng Tsao ( LaoTsao) Ph.D
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2011, at 12:21, Ron Chen <ron_chen_123 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> --- On Sat, 9/10/11, William Bryce <bbryce at univa.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Ron,
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you take your 'tin foil hat off' Ron.
>>>
>>> Hmm, so you were claiming me starting a flame war. Guess who is doing it now?
>>>
>>> In other successful open source projects, there is transparency. With Univa not disclosing what is open and what is close, I don't think we can should continue this "working together" discussion or even bring it up again in the near future.
>>>
>>> -Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>> Initially we thought that we should ask
>>>> people to assign copyright to Univa if they want to include
>>>> fixes  but we continued to discuss and we were
>>>> discussing that if we do have copyright assignment that it
>>>> be assigned to an 'independent 3rd party' i.e. not Univa but
>>>> something that we all have a stake in.
>>>>
>>>> But you can believe what you want to believe Ron.
>>>>
>>>> Bill.
>>>>
>>>> On 2011-09-09, at 11:44 AM, Ron Chen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill, please stop misleading the list. This is EXACTLY
>>>> this kind of tactics that I am against.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not talking about not putting copyright to my
>>>> code (my code is under SISSL, and Univa Grid Engine has 10
>>>> features that were developed by me.)
>>>>>
>>>>> What I was referring to is copyright reassignment. You
>>>> have requested me to reassign the copyright of my code to
>>>> Univa not long ago, I am suprised that you could mix up the
>>>> two.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Fri, 9/9/11, William Bryce <bbryce at univa.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree with Hung-Sheng,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You should put copyright on your code, and in
>>>> regards to
>>>>>> Ron's comments.  I won't comment - Ron can
>>>> have a flame
>>>>>> war with himself :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2011-09-09, at 11:22 AM, LaoTsao wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, every code need copy right
>>>>>>> especial someone else try to make $ out of
>>>> your code
>>>>>>> my 2c
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>> Hung-Sheng Tsao ( LaoTsao) Ph.D
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 9, 2011, at 10:40, Ron Chen <ron_chen_123 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On Fri, 9/9/11, Mark Dixon <m.c.dixon at leeds.ac.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I'm still a bit fuzzy on what
>>>> differentiates
>>>>>> the efforts,
>>>>>>>>> and am concerned that the projects
>>>> might not
>>>>>> be pulling in a
>>>>>>>>> common direction to benefit the
>>>> community as a
>>>>>> whole.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact our existance benefits the
>>>> community --
>>>>>> did you know that we fixed the memory accounting
>>>> bug on
>>>>>> Linux in the Open Grid Scheduler back in Aug last
>>>> year, and
>>>>>> Son of Grid Engine copied our fix? And Univa Grid
>>>> Engine
>>>>>> 8.0.0 still has that bug *as of today*, and its
>>>> customers
>>>>>> need to wait for 8.0.1 to get a fix.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I hightly doubt Univa would put as
>>>> much effort
>>>>>> as it is now and add the hwloc support into the
>>>> open core if
>>>>>> we did not announce our hwloc support back in
>>>> April:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://gridscheduler.sourceforge.net/projects/hwloc/GridEnginehwloc.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, I strongly believe that Univa will
>>>> now put
>>>>>> more effort in to get GPU integration, IPv6
>>>> support, SGI MPT
>>>>>> integration, etc into the open core ASAP as we are
>>>> working
>>>>>> on those features in Open Grid Scheduler.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When there is no competition, most
>>>> businesses tend
>>>>>> not to work hard to gain market share - and I
>>>> don't think
>>>>>> Univa is different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Isn't this what the steering committee
>>>> was
>>>>>> aiming to improve?
>>>>>>>>> As far as I can see, there's been no
>>>> news
>>>>>> posted to
>>>>>>>>> gridengine.org since February.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The page is old, and Stephen Dennis quited
>>>> Univa
>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not trying to have a go at anyone,
>>>> I think
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>> wants what is best for the community:
>>>> I'm just
>>>>>> hoping for a
>>>>>>>>> bit more constructive discussion about
>>>> what
>>>>>> that might be
>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a tendency not to trust companies,
>>>> as a lot
>>>>>> of them are somewhat dishonest and lack of
>>>> integrity in
>>>>>> order to gain a customer or two. I have not
>>>> totally written
>>>>>> off Univa yet, but what Univa posted on the
>>>> website about
>>>>>> open source Grid Engine is not true (and the ones
>>>> most piss
>>>>>> me off are "UGE Wins Hands Down" & "Free Grid
>>>> Engine
>>>>>> isn't Free"?) -- so at this point working with
>>>> Univa is out
>>>>>> of the question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And even outout the stupid market tactics,
>>>> Univa
>>>>>> is never clear what would be put in the open core
>>>> and what
>>>>>> is closed source. I am not signing the copy right
>>>> assignment
>>>>>> - they can continue to copy my code and feature as
>>>> they
>>>>>> wanted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Mark Dixon
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Email    :
>>>>>>>>> m.c.dixon at leeds.ac.uk
>>>>>>>>> HPC/Grid Systems Support
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Tel (int): 35429
>>>>>>>>> Information Systems Services
>>>>>>    Tel
>>>>>>>>> (ext): +44(0)113 343 5429
>>>>>>>>> University of Leeds, LS2 9JT, UK
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> users mailing list
>>>>>>>>> users at gridengine.org
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> William Bryce | VP of Products
>>>>>> Univa Corporation - 1001 Warrenville Road, Suite
>>>> 100 Lisle,
>>>>>> Il, 65032 USA
>>>>>> Email bbryce at univa.com
>>>>>> | Mobile: 512.751.8014 | Office: 905.237.4462
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> William Bryce | VP of Products
>>>> Univa Corporation - 1001 Warrenville Road, Suite 100 Lisle,
>>>> Il, 65032 USA
>>>> Email bbryce at univa.com
>>>> | Mobile: 512.751.8014 | Office: 905.237.4462
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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